It Was Never About Magic

[AngryHAtter Kyle's Nude Model Find all posts View Profile Close AngryHAtter]

What Alan Scott did via the ring could never be construed as classic magic.
Magic ala D & D consists of at a minimum a somatic component - gestures of the hands...and a verbal component.

Does his use of the ring satisfy either? I don't think so.

In my mind, and yes, I realize how that parses out being the klein bottle incarnate, he is merely channeling energies.

So rather than a classical view in which Scott would be classified as a mage, he is more akin to a Jedi - channeling a power of universal proportions - which makes his character more of a warrior cleric?

But a magician? Never.

Whatcha think?

[Big Daddy Dave Skywalker Moisture Farmer Find all posts View Profile Close Big Daddy Dave Skywalker]

I don't think Marty Nodell or Bill Finger knew anyone would create something called D+D over 70 years ago. Nor do I imagine D+D writes the rulebook on what's considered magic in fiction.

Thoughtful post though. Welcome to the boards!

[AngryHAtter Kyle's Nude Model Find all posts View Profile Close AngryHAtter]

No, but as the new writers came and had to fit one line of history with another, they indeed did have the benefit of such aids.
Further, D&D has basis in classic literature for just those sort of things.

Merlin uttered words and made gestures.


And thanks!

[Big Daddy Dave Skywalker Moisture Farmer Find all posts View Profile Close Big Daddy Dave Skywalker]

Well Alan has never been depicted as any kind of a master magician. He simply came into posession of a magical...tool. Basically, it's Aladdin's magic lamp.

[AngryHAtter Kyle's Nude Model Find all posts View Profile Close AngryHAtter]

Aladdin had to say a phrase or rub it to work the lamp, Scott does not.

Also I know, I've read whatever I've found on the subject, I remember being a wee lad and my mother handing me a comic with this wondrous emerald green glow to it.

I also realize I am arguing minutiae - which is how I earned my nerd status.
Are you saying the Starheart was doing Scott's bidding like the genie?
Since that is a retcon to begin with what of the original intent?

As the Scott saga continued, the power of the ring began to resemble what we take for granted as Jordan's ring.
The use of the 4th dimension to pass through walls, or his need to sock every bad guy into submission, changed in favor of a more "realistic superhero" approach.

Now Scott used the ring to project walls or to shield others, to melt street lamps...the supernatural element began to fade, so to speak and Hal's ring was emerging.

While it may have been the spark that led Nodell & Finger down the path they took, it was clearly evolving, as all comics do. I think it took on a more scientific nature as a mirror of the times. The atom bomb, the end of WWII,; it could be as simple as reacting to Marvel's Iron Man.

Do you see Scott as a Magician?

[Big Daddy Dave Skywalker Moisture Farmer Find all posts View Profile Close Big Daddy Dave Skywalker]

The entire starheart thing is a retcon. That came WAY later when they wanted to make a stronger link between Earth 1 Earth 2's GL concepts.

I see Alan Scott as a warrior who was gifted with a magic instrument and used it for good. Not so much a magician like Dr Fate or Zatanna. He's just so powerful that crowd can't exclude him.

[Big Daddy Dave Skywalker Moisture Farmer Find all posts View Profile Close Big Daddy Dave Skywalker]

Aladdin had to say a phrase or rub it to work the lamp, Scott does not.

Yes he does. He has to press his ring to his lantern and say his oath. This is akin to using a magic phrase to unlock a magical power, even if they played a bit loose with it in the original All-American Comics run.

[Evergreen City Corps Den Mother Find all posts View Profile Close Evergreen City]

This is turning into a trolling thread. Where's my fishing tackle?

[AngryHAtter Kyle's Nude Model Find all posts View Profile Close AngryHAtter]

Why would you say that?

An intelligent discussion of Scott's basis of power is a troll?
Either you live in a nasty quadrant or perhaps you are the troll.

Otherwise, add to the discussion.

I, do not see Scott's power as being magic based. What was originally written, notwithstanding. He only had to recharge the ring; there was no incantation to use it.
And no gesticulating.
I likened his power to a Jedi - one who channels a force by will alone.

And thanks for the warm welcome.

[Space Cop The Dandy Find all posts View Profile Close Space Cop]

That would be about right: his power is magic-based, but he himself is not magical or a magician. The parallels might be closer to some versions of King Arthur. In these, Excalibur was magical (though nowhere near the level of the ring or Aladdin's lamp) but Arthur wasn't a magician just because he wielded the sword.

Anyway, Noddel has made it clear that Aladdin's lamp was the main inspiration. He even wanted to name him Alan Ladd as a play on it, until he was told there was an actor with that name.

[AngryHAtter Kyle's Nude Model Find all posts View Profile Close AngryHAtter]

Okay.
Then how about this?

The difference between technology and magic is the breadth of a hair.
So Hal and Alan are really a lot closer than we imagine. They BOTH are just channeling a power beyond them.

If you watch Scott's power evolve over the course the series, he starts to resemble Hal more and more.
Fewer gouts of green flame and more usage of impenetrable walls, or "force field" applications of the ring. Big hands to clobber the villain instead of Scott having to physically beat the bad guy into submission.

[Space Cop The Dandy Find all posts View Profile Close Space Cop]

Yep. Pretty much.

In fact the retcon of the starheart brought them much closer. In that story line, even though it's still a collection of magic, the Guardians essentially made it into what the green light would be later.

[Gauntlet101010 Alpha-Lantern Find all posts View Profile Close Gauntlet101010]

There have been attempts to make Alan more magically inclined. He was part of a magical group that harrassed Fate (Jared Stevens). He recieved a magical eye made of green flame when he lost his in Infinite Crirsis (nevermind that he's supposed to be composed of entirely green flame). And he used to be in charge of Emerald City on the moon before he died.

D&D isn't the end all and be all of magic. People can use magic items without gestures or words. Magic swords being top of the list in that regard.

[AngryHAtter Kyle's Nude Model Find all posts View Profile Close AngryHAtter]

There have been attempts to make Alan more magically inclined. He was part of a magical group that harrassed Fate (Jared Stevens). He recieved a magical eye made of green flame when he lost his in Infinite Crirsis (nevermind that he's supposed to be composed of entirely green flame). And he used to be in charge of Emerald City on the moon before he died.

D&D isn't the end all and be all of magic. People can use magic items without gestures or words. Magic swords being top of the list in that regard.

A sword is an artifact. We are talking about the wielders of magic.
Dr. Strange, Doctor Fate - yeah practitioners of the black arts.
Do you see Scott as the same type of superhero?

And I used D&D for the benefit of the audience HERE as I am quite a bit older than that.

Mages, Merlin, any classic mage had to gesticulate or repeat an incantation.
One can argue the oath being an incantation, but there was no requirement for any utterance of an oath...that was each according to the individual lantern.

Like I said, I see Scott as a sort of Jedi - without any training necessary.
He was given a light sabre and told he was to fight crime.

When the practice of retcon'ing began I understood the intent - to fit newer incarnations of heros into existing story lines. However some of it has been sheer revisionism - complete rewrites, the lines blur.

[Dr. Naysay Guardian of the Universe Find all posts View Profile Close Dr. Naysay]

Holy crap this conversation is pointless.

Y'all realize that "magic" isn't real right? There's no such thing as a "standard definition of magic" or "magic arts". It's whatever any given author wants it to be.

You can call the Green Lantern Corps rings technology or you can call them magic... it doesn't matter because they're fictional things so far outside the realm of possibility that they might as well be "magic".

Same with Superman. And Aquaman. And the Flash.

You can claim "Speed Force = Science" all day long but that's bullshit. The Flashes are magically tied into a magic force that allows them to do things that nobody else can.

That's magic.

This conversation is insane.