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It looks like Michael Bendis is bringing Marvel's identity politics to DC.
Maybe it'll work this time.
https://www.cbr.com/bendis-dc-superman-jewish-roots/
Maybe it'll work this time.
https://www.cbr.com/bendis-dc-superman-jewish-roots/
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^I don't mind them re-emphasizing the Old Testament (or Hebrew Bible) connections, but if they retcon the mid-Western Kents into practicing/ethnic Jews, that's just silly.
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The question I ask about almost everything is, will this sell comics?Originally posted by Space Cop View Post
Mr. Pax, why don't you go here and enlighten these folks about what a great idea SJW Marvel was?
http://www.debate.org/opinions/are-s...-marvel-comicsLast edited by Trey Strain; 02-02-2018, 10:20 PM.Comment
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Nothing in the article suggested that they're making him Jewish in the comics, just getting back to his roots as far as the type of hero he is. Originally Superman took down wife-beaters, crooked politicians, etc. and they want to step away from the "truth, justice, and the American way" version and get back to basics. Because one look at America today makes people question our way....
~//V\\~Comment
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As a diverse person who's into diversity in escapist fiction, and makes escapist fiction with diverse heroes, my view is...
Do identity politics sell comics? Hmm... they can. They don't always, but sometimes they do. It might not sound like a good answer, but it's not a black and white situation.
It's REALLY difficult to get new people into mainstream comics, because the way they're distributed, sold, and the way the big companies structure them from a narrative perspective makes them extremely inaccessible to potential new fans.
What essentially happened with Marvel comics is the company saw it wasn't getting near enough new fans, and did something to try to remedy that with its so-called "SJW" books, by trying to entice different demographics. One of the big problems, though, is that Marvel didn't change anything with its distribution, promotion, or overall business model. This led to these "SJW" books not reaching many people who may have been intrigued by them, and instead going out to the same audience that Marvel has had for decades, many of whom had no interest in those products.
Team that with other bad decisions, like introducing all these characters AT ONCE, having many of them usurp popular characters that the tried and true audience loves, Marvel not focusing on other popular concepts like Fantastic Four and X-Men, and the perhaps questionable quality and subject matter of the books, and you've got a mess on your hands. So, it wasn't really just one thing (diverse characters), that put Marvel in the less than great situation it got into. What it really was was a series of bad decisions, lack of foresight, and being in an incredibly difficult to penetrate market.
Regardless of the result, I do applaud Marvel for trying to expand its audience, though, instead of being content with holding on to the old fans, which is just another path to disaster. That's what leads to all the events, the tiring reboots, relaunches and so on. Comics companies have to keep pulling dumb gimmicks to get the attention of the same old fans who lose attention quickly.
I don't agree with replacing popular white heroes with minorities, especially in this day and age. In the long run, I think that can lead to too many problems, like fan wars and so on.
Now, diversity in general DOES sell, though!
I think we're seeing that with things like how Luke Cage broke Netflix, because too many people were watching it, and how the Black Panther movie is tracking. The Black Lightning show is also doing quite well. It's really really telling how a Black Lightning comic won't sell well, but a show will. The same thing happened with Static Shock. The comics market is really tough to penetrate. It's not just about diverse characters, though, it's just anything that hasn't been a tried and true seller for decades will usually be met with apathy from comics readers. This is essentially due, again, to comics hardly getting any new fans, and having a relatively very limited number of readers.Last edited by Star-Lantern; 02-02-2018, 11:50 PM.Comment
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Another place where people sure do need some enlightening.
https://kiwifarms.net/threads/marvel...-market.37538/Comment
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Some sample comments about Marvel's attempts to pander to SJWs:
company burns a shitload of money on trash titles in an attempt to attract a new audience that doesn't buy comics and just wants another platform for their politics
>company loses a lot of their old customers in the process, but hey they were problematic shitlords anyway and the new audience will totally buy just as many comics as they did
>they don't
>later, company does one thing that the new audience doesn't like
>new audience instantly turns on the company
Thing is: it would be perfectly fine to also pander to loud-mouthed SJWs with some of their comics. However what Marvel obvioulsy didn't realize, no matter how clear the signs and how often it already happened: Loudmouthed Tumblr-Spergs are not a massive market. They are a niche. Again: Catering to a niche with a part of your stuff isn't a bad business decision.
Where this shit all fell apart spectacularly, was when they decided to pander to SJWs with everything they did. That niche is nowhere near big enough to be profitable that way, and when every brand you put out is some gender-special brown skinned muslim Mary Sue, you will lose a fuckton of sales. Not only will you piss off all those long-time fans, but your products will also start to cannibalize one another, since SJW will (at best) buy a couple of series - not all of them.
They're basically a bunch of fascists. They don't just want comics (or whatever) for them, they want to force their bullshit into shit other people buy, while they just steal shit. It's not even enough for them that they get "representation" or whatever bullshit code word they're using for it. Anything they don't like also has to be destroyed so nobody else can buy it either.
I really hope this is finally the start of the decline of all this SJW nonsense. These people do it for attention and the feeling of power over others. But if companies pander to them, only to lose lots of money or go out of business, this will show others that the SJWs are not worth pursuing. Then companies stop listening to them as they aren't worth it. SJWs are like children not getting their way. First they demand something and when they don't get it, they start to stomp their foot, cry and make a scene. But if this doesn't work, then they stop and will have to try another way. We've been terrorised by these children in adult bodies, screaming insane bullshit at us for far too long. The sooner they finally stop getting their way, the sooner it will die off.
The movies are basically comic books. You know why they have broad appeal? Because black people, women and trans are human. They like them for the same reasons white people do. When you look at 'This is too white! The problem must be the white people. We will make it less white and then everyone will read it!'
They will not "vote with their wallets". It hasn't happened and never will. We see industry after industry make attempts at using them as a target demo, and it blows up every single time. They do not buy vidya. They do not buy comics. They do not pay for music or movies, or your shitty t-shirts, or whatever the hell you're flogging today.
These comic franchises died because the only people who buy physical comics anymore are a subculture of obsessive collectors, and those people don't give a shit about the ideas you're appealing to. SJW's give many shits, but they don't give you money unless you're ebegging on gofundme.I absolutely love that capitalism is beginning to whip itself back around to bite these people in the ass. They got everything they asked for, everything, but they forgot the most important part of keeping their "favorite" franchises alive: If you don't vote with your wallets, you get to watch them die. Welcome to goddamn capitalism, Tumblr.
I'm pretty sure that Gabby Rivera is one of the shittiest comics writers that ever lived, (just search "America Comic roast" on YouTube and you will see what I mean), but why was she even on that book? Because she is both Latina and a lesbian, which matches the titular character and only that character. And it really shows when you read the way she writes other characters, especially white ones.
This is pretty much Marvel's strategy: "Why make comics with good art and writing? Let's just piss off our fanbase instead!" This is like hiring waiters who openly spit on your food and then wondering why your restaurant isn't popular any more.Comment
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Out of something like 100+ new comic series from Marvel [not including all of the series that ALWAYS get new volumes] the last three years, only around 30-35 of them had gender/racial/sexuality swapped characters. That's catering to several niches with part of your stuff, and not a bad business decision. That's your own words right there. They didn't pander to SJW's with everything they did. You just keep repeating it like they have.Originally posted by Trey Strain View Post
NOW we're getting somewhere. So... this whole mad-on you have for Marvel is because Carol Danvers is now Capt. Marvel and a Muslim girl is Ms. Marvel? And you believe for some reason that's hurting their comics? Before they had one comic with varying sales... now they reused an old alias and gave the other one to a new minority character... that's actually popular. More popular in fact than the character she inherited the name from as shown by the December comics sales.Originally posted by Trey Strain View Post
Ms. Marvel #25 - 27,183 copies sold (higher than both issues of Green Lanterns for the month BTW).
Captain Marvel #127 - 13,229 copies sold.
It should be noted the two comics are also $3.99 and bringing in 25% more cash than a DC Comic with the same sales numbers sold for $2.99. It should ALSO be noted the female Thor starring in Mighty Thor is beating Wonder Woman in comic sales by roughly 4,000 units (FemThor selling about 41k, WW selling 37k).
If they've replaced one of your favorite characters then say so. Stop bitching for the sake of bitching like you were reading 15 Marvel comics monthly and now only read 3 because of SJW characters. I agree that some of what they've put out is pure garbage, however diversifying their line isn't what's been the fall of Marvel. When 60+ new titles with Caucasian male leads do just as poorly, it's clear Marvel just doesn't know how to produce good comics for *most* audiences.
Now that they have the movie rights from Fox, and the F4 and X books will return... expect a shift in the market.
~//V\\~Comment
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It isn't just the adding minority characters or minority characters replacing established and popular White Male characters.Originally posted by Trey Strain View Post
Its the writers inserting their political leanings into the books that is the major problem. Look how many we've had refugee stories the last few years [while a "refugee" crisis has been going on in Europe] and look how times Superman narrates "I came to this planet as a refugee." Superman should not be attending Antifa or Black Lives Matter rallies and Batman should not be beating up Police Officers. If the writers wanks to photos of Karl Marx while reading Communist Manifesto that's their business, but it should be kept out of the books.Last edited by JohnMc; 12-11-2018, 04:39 PM.Comment
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Politics have been married to superhero comics since day one. From Action Comics #1 to Black Lightning, from Captain America fighting Hitler to the original Secret Empire, from Hard Travelling Heroes to Sinestro's facism, from the Mutant Registration Act to the Legacy Virus, and that isn't even mentioning Watchmen, V for Vendetta or Brought to Light, Transmetropolitan or Invisibles.Comment
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The diversity characters were executed poorly. They were all so generic that you could swap one out for the other and the story would lose nothing. They were all geniuses. All down with the sciences. Everybody loves them and constantly fawns over them. No weaknesses or no flaws. Always takes down their enemies easily. Superior to their predecessors [especially if predecessor was a white man] Does any of this sound like a winning formula? Hell No. This would fail regardless of what race or gender the character was. No tension, no lessons to be learned by the main characters leaves the reader with very little incentive to emotionally and financially invest in a character. The writers inserting their politics in the books and practically insulting the readers didn't help either.Originally posted by Star-Lantern View PostComment
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Well, I wouldn't say Simon fits that mold since he was a car thief, a paranoid (carried the gun when he was advised not to), and wasn't even a good Muslim (has a tattoo and rejects much of the tradition). The only way he does fit is that Mary Sue stuff of him being able to cure the incurable.Originally posted by JohnMc View Post
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This one was the last straw for me when it came to Marvel messing with the X-Men on purpose to completely throw a curve at Fox. And it's not just that they did this with the younger Iceman from the past, but it then went on to effect the mainstrem Bobby. And the way they did it with the younger Jean reading his mind and telling him he was gay. The character then asked "My adult self likes women, maybe I'm bi?" to which the younger Jean was like "Nope. You're just gay."Originally posted by JohnMc View Post
I'm all for representation, as a tri-racial mutt of a man I can identify with just about anybody, but if any of the founding five X-Men was gonna be gay it would be Beast. Making Iceman gay didn't add anything to the character. He was already making waves as a ladies man with relationships with Shadowcat, Rogue, Polaris, and others over the years. The one aspect of Hank McCoy's character that's rarely looked upon is his love life. Off the top of my head the only time it's ever come up is when he was involved with a woman that basically worked for the Spider-man equivalent of Two-Face [that was a story in the 90's Spidey cartoon!]. Aside from that I think in one of the recent disasters of a live action X-Men I think he kinda had a thing with the ridiculous hero version of Mystique?
Hank McCoy's love life could've been a secret because it's hard enough being around people when you're larger than normal and covered in blue fur. He also tends to hold government/mutant liaison roles, and some government types tend to keep their love lives super private. Making him gay would've actually added something to the character rather than trash 50+ years of character building done to another in his various relationships.
As an Iceman fan since way back I gave his solo series a shot, then the tagline basically being "Now being true to himself and more powerful because of it..." completely killed it for me. You're reminded he's gay regularly. Not a fan of some of these iterations of Iceman's designs either... the follow up series after the first was cancelled wasn't any better. The suit design being the one he used in the 90's X-Men cartoon was kinda cool, but partnering him with Bishop was random.
So much potential for a good series wasted on pushing this gay Iceman. He's essentially the Spider-man of the X-Men franchise. A few X-Men have potential out the wazoo for a solo series, Angel/Archangel for example, Havok, Colossus, Sunfire, Banshee or Siren....
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