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Old 03-01-2020, 06:14 PM   #1
Hypo
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Default Ron Marz talks about some of his expierences with H.E.A.T.



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Old 03-01-2020, 07:00 PM   #2
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I never liked Emerald Twilight, but I'm not a H.E.A.T. guy per se.

Marz's points are good, but I think these arguments get undermined when you turn it into "he's just a fat virgin living with his parents."
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Old 03-01-2020, 07:47 PM   #3
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When your career highlight is Emerald Twilight, and you're still complaining on and on and on about something like that fifteen years later, you need to sit down and be quiet.

I happen to know that the guy he was talking about there was Harry Philipo, who praised Marz PUBLICLY for his graciousness in signing those comics, calling him "a peach." It seems he overestimated Marz, doesn't it? He died of a heart attack not long after that.

Marz's hero, Geoff Johns, REALLY WAS a member of HEAT, and Geoff's story that brought back Hal and the Corps was simply a list of points written by HEAT. Geoff had so little to do with it that he should have been embarrassed to accept a paycheck for it. The only part of the story that Geoff came up with was the claim that Hal was possessed by Parallax during Emerald Twilight -- which was only part of it that sucked.

I'm sure Marz doesn't know that either.

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Old 03-01-2020, 07:54 PM   #4
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I never liked Emerald Twilight, but I'm not a H.E.A.T. guy per se.

Marz's points are good, but I think these arguments get undermined when you turn it into "he's just a fat virgin living with his parents."
H.E.A.T. has called for the murder of Ron Marz. More than once. He's allowed to call them fat virgins.
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Old 03-01-2020, 08:05 PM   #5
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H.E.A.T. has called for the murder of Ron Marz. More than once. He's allowed to call them fat virgins.
Yeah, I have no problem with him attacking that fault, but I still think descending to that level undermines the argument. I can call Hermann Göring a fat bastard of limited intelligence and rightly nobody (I need to bother with) is going to argue the point, but I still think it would be the wrong approach because my problem with him and the thing that he should be criticized for isn't his weight or his IQ, but that he was an evil man who did very evil things. Why should I stereotype him and marginalize overweight people or people with lesser mental ability when there are really kind overweight people of limited intelligence who do great things?
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Old 03-01-2020, 08:06 PM   #6
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H.E.A.T. has called for the murder of Ron Marz. More than once. He's allowed to call them fat virgins.
Bull fucking shit.

Marz later admitted that HEAT had nothing to do with that. And even if SOMEONE threatened him -- for which we have only his word -- he wasn't even alarmed enough to alert the authorities. Which any sensible person should have done.
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Old 03-01-2020, 08:12 PM   #7
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You guys should be ashamed of yourselves for believing something like that, when it's been publicly refuted many times. Mark Twain said something about how a lie can run around the world ten times while the truth is still putting on its shows.

And Hypo, why are you copying and pasting fifty miles of Marz's tweets here, of all places, when he's talking shit about people who were Green Lantern fans when that was considered grossly unfashionable? If it were up to him, Kyle would still be the only GL in 2020.

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Old 03-01-2020, 08:38 PM   #8
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Marz would be shocked to know how many comics pros besides Johns sided with HEAT, but kept quiet out of fear of Jenette Kahn. A highly regarded artist drew an image of Harry Philipo in one of his stories, as a joke on DC.
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Old 03-02-2020, 12:28 AM   #9
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Bull fucking shit.

Marz later admitted that HEAT had nothing to do with that. And even if SOMEONE threatened him -- for which we have only his word -- he wasn't even alarmed enough to alert the authorities. Which any sensible person should have done.
Part of whole HEAT / death threat thing came from an article in Wizard. And the writer later apologized for the error which was created as he was editing the article.

Quote:
Subject: Re: The "DEATH" threats

Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 13:55 EDT

From: JBusbee

Message‑id: <1998051617551100..NAA01385@ladder01.news.aol.co m>

Hey folks—

I'm the writer of the Wizard article, and I can tell you straight‑‑HEAT made no death threats. Kevin Dooley received death threats‑‑that's a fact. HEAT has been upset with Dooley‑‑that's also a fact‑‑but never took action in such a ludicrous (and illegal) way. The death threat line was an unfortunate placement in the article for which I take responsibility. Dooley's statement should have been a few paragraphs above where it was finally located, or should have included a line noting that HEAT was not making the threats. But when cutting and pasting and trimming an article from about 7,000 words to 1,500, mistakes can slip through. It's not an excuse, just a flat‑out error.

Both HEAT and Kyle fans were nothing but respectful and helpful to me while writing the article, and I regret any problems this may have caused for HEAT. You can agree or disagree with 'em, but they're making their case in a completely legal way.

I appreciate the nice words many of you had for the article a couple weeks back.

Best wishes—

James Busbee
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Old 03-02-2020, 03:49 AM   #10
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Wow...talk about a blast from the emotionally stunted, coping skills deficient past, it's H.E.A.T. If there is a prime example of why comic book fans were once viewed as a homogenized group of psychologically unstable recluses, it's HEAT.

And while I'm sure some of you will assume that it's easy for me to criticize that group since I'm a lover of Emerald Twilight and a New Dawn, let me assure you that I was in a very similar situation with Marvel's treatment of Eddie Brock in the mid-2000s. I simply waited for a course-correction rather than wish real-life ills on people.
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Old 03-02-2020, 12:55 PM   #11
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Wow...talk about a blast from the emotionally stunted, coping skills deficient past, it's H.E.A.T. If there is a prime example of why comic book fans were once viewed as a homogenized group of psychologically unstable recluses, it's HEAT.

And while I'm sure some of you will assume that it's easy for me to criticize that group since I'm a lover of Emerald Twilight and a New Dawn, let me assure you that I was in a very similar situation with Marvel's treatment of Eddie Brock in the mid-2000s. I simply waited for a course-correction rather than wish real-life ills on people.
Yeah, I figured you'd barge in and say something like that.

Did you even read up there that NOBODY wished ill on Marz? No, you didn't. You skipped over that part. You just read the bullshit that he and Michael said, then feverishly hit the reply button and posted your ignorant rant.

Marz, like many other comics writers, wants to blame higher-ups or fans for his shortcomings. Which, all this time later, simply shows his emotional stunting.

Your crush on Jessica Cruz displays some issues too.

According to you and Marz, "tough" and "cool" guys wanted Hal and the Corps to stay gone, and "nerds" didn't. I've even been called a "fag" by some of those "tough guys." But of course not to my face.

That's obnoxious, but it's also hilarious. EVERYBODY who reads funny books is a nerd. Especially the ones who think they're "cool." They're the very biggest nerds.

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Old 03-02-2020, 01:30 PM   #12
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Well, wishing him to be fired is, in fact, wishing ill, and nobody denies that at least SOME of HEAT's members wished that. The fact that they didn't offer death threats doesn't mean they didn't wish him ill.

For my part, I never would have joined HEAT because, even though I though Emerald Twilight was terrible, and that Hal Jordan was badly mishandled and written out of character, I actually enjoyed Kyle's run. The new status quo was still enjoyable to read, I just tried to forget how pathetically badly the path to get there was handled. (Though I admit, DC made that difficult at times, as they would periodically try to retroactively justify ET through hamfisted flashbacks to try to retroactively hint that Hal was ALWAYS unstable. Not to mention all the times they incorrectly mentioned that he killed the Guardians, despite that contradicting even the events of ET.)
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Old 03-02-2020, 01:39 PM   #13
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Yeah, I figured you'd barge in and say something like that.

Did you even read up there that NOBODY wished ill on Marz? No, you didn't. You skipped over that part. You just read the bullshit that he and Michael said, then feverishly hit the reply button and posted your ignorant rant.

Marz, like many other comics writers, wants to blame higher-ups or fans for his shortcomings. Which, all this time later, simply shows his emotional stunting.

Your crush on Jessica Cruz displays some issues too.

According to you and Marz, "tough" and "cool" guys wanted Hal and the Corps to stay gone, and "nerds" didn't. I've even been called a "fag" by some of those "tough guys." But of course not to my face.

That's obnoxious, but it's also hilarious. EVERYBODY who reads funny books is a nerd. Especially the ones who think they're "cool." They're the very biggest nerds.
Yes, they did wish him ill in that many of their members called for Marz and many others at DC to be fired. I agree with Marz in that calling for someone to lose his job because of a narrative is silly and immature. I never wished for anyone to be hurt, financially or physically, when Eddie was not only replaced as Venom by Flash Thompson, but I also endured the INO version of Venom in Spiderman 3. Do you know why I didn't wish those things? Because I'm an adult.

And, yes, I'm a nerd (or geek, if that's your preferred nomenclature), and a giant one at that. I'll agree with you there, but you can assign all the "issues" that you want to me. The difference between HEAT and I is that even though my favorite DC character is currently M.I.A., I'm not having a tantrum and calling for DC employees to be relegated to the unemployment office.

By the way, I also think that Jo Mullein and Tai Pham are excellent characters. Do you see how fan can let his tastes evolve without being childish when his favorite isn't in the spotlight?
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Old 03-02-2020, 08:04 PM   #14
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Am I too young, I've never heard of HEAT
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Old 03-03-2020, 06:19 AM   #15
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Am I too young, I've never heard of HEAT
They were a group formed in the mid-90s as a reaction to Emerald Twilight. I was shocked to see that their website is still there ( Hal's Emerald Advancement Team ) despite the return to the status quo. To be fair, many of them were kids and very young adults who were just passionate about Hal. However, especially in the beginning, there were some overzealous members, many who were old enough to have known better, who threw a collective tantrum. They called for a number of firings and they were known to confront DC employees at Cons.
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Old 03-03-2020, 08:41 AM   #16
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Wow.
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Old 03-03-2020, 12:19 PM   #17
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They also helped get John Broome to his only appearance at a comic book convention, collected comics to sent to children's hospitals and set up a Gil Kane memorial scholarship at the at the School of Visual Arts in New York. https://www.cbr.com/gil-kane-scholar...-lantern-fans/
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Old 03-03-2020, 12:56 PM   #18
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I feel like I signed a petition of theirs (a simple bring-back-Hal letter to the editor), but I never joined or knew the ins and outs at the time.
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Old 03-03-2020, 02:18 PM   #19
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I'm not aware that anybody hates Marz or even dislikes him. He's very good at writing certain kinds of stories, and I think the higher-ups have only rarely used him to his best advantage. He's getting older and is working in a declining industry where opportunities are shrinking, which is also part of it.

But for him to launch into a long bitter rant like that, our of the blue and after all this time, is startling. Obviously it reflects disappointment over how his career has gone. And he picked the wrong person to attack in such a nasty way.
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Old 03-03-2020, 03:52 PM   #20
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Lol "rant", he told a story about something that happened in the past which a ton of creators do on twitter.

And once you start a campaign to get someone fired from a book for a narrative decision you open yourself up to be mildly insulted by that person.
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Old 03-03-2020, 04:20 PM   #21
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I'm not aware that anybody hates Marz or even dislikes him.
Go to YouTube and type his name in. You'll see several videos criticizing him as part of the "SJW comics" crowd. Although in the interest of fairness, he doesn't mind weighing in on controversial topics these days.
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Old 03-03-2020, 04:32 PM   #22
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...And once you start a campaign to get someone fired from a book for a narrative decision you open yourself up to be mildly insulted by that person.
It doesn't matter how mild. Would it have been okay if he pointed out the person was black and nappy-headed? Of course not. So, why is it okay to mock his weight, glasses, family situation, or facial hair? It's stereotyping and it weakens his point.
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Old 03-03-2020, 06:07 PM   #23
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It doesn't matter how mild. Would it have been okay if he pointed out the person was black and nappy-headed? Of course not. So, why is it okay to mock his weight, glasses, family situation, or facial hair? It's stereotyping and it weakens his point.
Well considering that the phrase nappy-headed has its roots in othering black people in order to justify slavery I'd say it's not really equitable to saying someone looks like Santa Claus. If we do enslave fat people though and justify it by saying that they look like Santa Claus I will firmly be on your side.

Let's take a look at what Marz said: he described the guy and said he looked like Santa Claus. Marz didn't call him slurs, didn't say he should kill himself nor did Marz say something along the lines of "this fat looking fuck who looked like he'd never touched a woman" or a ton of other things that would be way out of bounds. Instead he said he looked like Santa Claus? Was it rude? Absolutely. Do I begrudge him for doing it? No.

When you don't like a comic book story there are plenty of things you can do, you can bitch about it online, you can stop buying the book, you can go to cons or whatever and tell creators that you miss the old direction in a non harassing way and probably a million other things I'm forgetting. But when you start a campaign to get someone fired and kicked out of the industry you are a douche. And when you act like a douche people will probably be rude to you, and as long as that rudeness isn't something over the top I'm ok with it.

As a side note a Santa Claus looking dude starting a campaign to get someone fired from a book but continuing to buy said book and trying to get them all signed is the most stereotypical thing I've ever heard and it cracks me up. The fact that he tried to give Marz a membership card is also hilarious.
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Old 03-03-2020, 06:26 PM   #24
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Ah, the good old days! I think I still have my card somewhere in storage. We got the last laugh, didn't we?

As far as I'm concerned Ron Marz is still a war criminal even today, like the nazis escaping to South America after WWII. Nobody forced him to write that story and destroy Hal Jordan like that for 10 years, that was his doing. That's his name on the cover. Would somebody else have been asked to write the story? Sure, but then it wouldn't have been him.
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Old 03-03-2020, 07:50 PM   #25
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