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  • #31
    Originally posted by Foghorn Lantern View Post
    Re the sectors: Just don't put a limit or a number on how many GLs there are, and don't specify how the universe is divided up, if in fact it is.
    That could work. But since the sectors and Green Lanterns have a numbered system, I think fans would be itching to know how many there are. And I wouldn't get rid of the numbered system since the title "Sector 2814" has become a hallmark of the franchise. Still, the fans wouldn't need to be told, and it may be better to leave that vague, so things don't appear too rigid and boxed in, especially since the universe is supposed to be expanding.

    Re what to do with Kyle: He needs to be placed on Earth as a GL, without the baggage of the Nineties.
    Being placed on Earth as a Green Lantern is definitely a thought. It would be a lot better to have Kyle there than Simon Baz, who is more or less useless. What do you mean by "the baggage of the Nineties," though?

    Re the Lanterns: I say give them all a title. If one or two or three don't stick, then so what? The world won't end. Titles get canceled all the time. But put some real thought into it beforehand this time instead of flying by the seat of your pants. And make them all GREEN LANTERNS!
    Yeah, but DC just got done trying that, and there were some rather low selling books there, including one with Kyle Rayner. Now, I wouldn't pin the blame on Kyle Rayner, necessarily, but rather the Green Lantern franchise being spread more thin than it could comfortably bear. I don't think the cause of the low sales was due to the fact that Kyle wasn't a Green Lantern, but, again, the franchise being spread too thin, and people willing to buy only so much Green Lantern.

    DC could try it again, but like I said, I think the same thing would happen, and you have to consider that DC could have given that potential shot to another book that may sell better, diversify their line more (since there are already GL titles going), or both.
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    • #32
      Originally posted by Star-Lantern View Post
      1) Still, the fans wouldn't need to be told, and it may be better to leave that vague, so things don't appear too rigid and boxed in, especially since the universe is supposed to be expanding.


      2) Being placed on Earth as a Green Lantern is definitely a thought. It would be a lot better to have Kyle there than Simon Baz, who is more or less useless. What do you mean by "the baggage of the Nineties," though?



      3) Yeah, but DC just got done trying that, and there were some rather low selling books there, including one with Kyle Rayner. Now, I wouldn't pin the blame on Kyle Rayner, necessarily, but rather the Green Lantern franchise being spread more thin than it could comfortably bear. I don't think the cause of the low sales was due to the fact that Kyle wasn't a Green Lantern, but, again, the franchise being spread too thin, and people willing to buy only so much Green Lantern.
      1. Exactly. I did sales for a while, and I was taught as a fundamental that you stay away from numbers as much as possible. They box you in.

      2. Kyle was specifically created as "a Green Lantern for the Nineties." Backward baseball caps, Nine Inch Nails, loft apartment in NYC. He was supposed to be "younger and hipper" than grey-templed Hal. Lose that stuff.

      3. They tried to expand the franchise in the Nineties too. But both times, it was not with all four guys as GLs. They keep trying to turn some of the Lanterns into something else, and it never works. A few fans used to complain that all the Lanterns have the same powers, but as Steve Englehart said, "It ain't about the powers." It's about the CHARACTERS!

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Lantern of Gallifrey View Post
        I think Kyle needs his own book again. I don't know what the premise would be but I think he deserves it.
        He did and it was called Green Lantern: New Guardians.

        It hasn't been that long for a Kyle solo series.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by IonFan View Post
          so long as he's still the most powerful _____ Lantern of them all then i'm down for yet another go, otherwise don't even bother
          I agree.

          Kyle is and always will be the GREATEST Lantern in existence. I wish that he would get his own book or even team up with Guy. I like the interaction that the two of them have. During Blackest Night was pretty cool. Very well written dialogue between the two of them.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Foghorn Lantern View Post
            2. Kyle was specifically created as "a Green Lantern for the Nineties." Backward baseball caps, Nine Inch Nails, loft apartment in NYC. He was supposed to be "younger and hipper" than grey-templed Hal. Lose that stuff.
            IMHO, Kyle works best as the younger of the Lanterns. IDK what you expect here though... lose all the stuff you mention and replace it with what? An MP3 player, an iPhone, and a Beiber haircut? The only thing that really ever bugged me on that list is how in the hell did he live on Bleecker Street as a starving artist and pay what they pay for rent in that particular area. And as far as him keeping with the times, I don't need to see a Kyle complaining about the president or the economy every other few issues like everybody else in this country seems to be doing. 'Bout the only thing that'd tie him to today's times, for me anyway [since I see a lot of me in Kyle], is to give him something mundane like a crush on Taylor Swift. Marvel uses celebrities and popular stuff in their comics all the time while DC tries and fails with stuff like FedLex, Facepage, and teen sensation Whitney Sears. Time to [i[really[/i] get with the times...

            Originally posted by Foghorn Lantern View Post
            3. They tried to expand the franchise in the Nineties too. But both times, it was not with all four guys as GLs. They keep trying to turn some of the Lanterns into something else, and it never works. A few fans used to complain that all the Lanterns have the same powers, but as Steve Englehart said, "It ain't about the powers." It's about the CHARACTERS!
            GLCQ was a poor attempt at keeping a GLC title on the shelves despite a few good stories. Guy Gardner/Warrior and Darkstars, while they did have former GL's in them, weren't an expansion of the franchise. Hell John wasn't even a Darkstar until after Zero Hour. And Guy between the yellow ring and the Warrior powers was a mess too. Closest thing we got to an expansion after they intro'ed Kyle was the New Corps 2 parter and the GL/Sentinel Heart of Darkness a year earlier.

            TPTB only thought to expand when Geoff [and by extension EVS] created multiple colored Corps'. And that's mostly what we got. Red Lanterns. New Guardians. Larfleeze. Sinestro...

            ~KL~

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            • #36
              Originally posted by The Kid Lantern View Post
              IMHO, Kyle works best as the younger of the Lanterns. IDK what you expect here though... lose all the stuff you mention and replace it with what? An MP3 player, an iPhone, and a Beiber haircut? The only thing that really ever bugged me on that list is how in the hell did he live on Bleecker Street as a starving artist and pay what they pay for rent in that particular area. And as far as him keeping with the times, I don't need to see a Kyle complaining about the president or the economy every other few issues like everybody else in this country seems to be doing. 'Bout the only thing that'd tie him to today's times, for me anyway [since I see a lot of me in Kyle], is to give him something mundane like a crush on Taylor Swift. Marvel uses celebrities and popular stuff in their comics all the time while DC tries and fails with stuff like FedLex, Facepage, and teen sensation Whitney Sears. Time to [i[really[/i] get with the times...



              GLCQ was a poor attempt at keeping a GLC title on the shelves despite a few good stories. Guy Gardner/Warrior and Darkstars, while they did have former GL's in them, weren't an expansion of the franchise. Hell John wasn't even a Darkstar until after Zero Hour. And Guy between the yellow ring and the Warrior powers was a mess too. Closest thing we got to an expansion after they intro'ed Kyle was the New Corps 2 parter and the GL/Sentinel Heart of Darkness a year earlier.

              TPTB only thought to expand when Geoff [and by extension EVS] created multiple colored Corps'. And that's mostly what we got. Red Lanterns. New Guardians. Larfleeze. Sinestro...

              ~KL~
              Kyle just doesn't need to be a kid, nor even the youngest. Been there and done that. It makes him second rate, the junior partner in the firm. He doesn't need to be au courant or trendy either. Yes, I have some ideas about what to do with him.

              Some people get stuck on the past, no matter how bad an idea that is. There was a very hardcore group who adamantly opposed Guy becoming a GL again and demanded that Warrior come back. It took them a long time to simmer down. Others thought the idea of a GLC comic that wasn't a quarterly and filled with short stories was crazy. Now, I'm sure, some will want Kyle put back the way he was when Ron Marz was writing him. That's human nature.
              Trey Strain
              Guardian of the Universe
              Last edited by Trey Strain; 08-03-2015, 10:08 PM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Foghorn Lantern View Post
                Just make him a Green Lantern on Earth...
                This made me laugh after you said this...

                Originally posted by Foghorn Lantern View Post
                Been there and done that.

                Some people get stuck on the past....
                We've been there and done that if it's just putting him back on Earth. Take away all the 90's trappings and replace them with more modern themes and situations and how is it really that different? Because it's the New52 or DCYou or whatever? Oh, but he hasn't been a member of the League yet... but you don't want him being the younger GL or the rookie on the League. I don't see how being the youngest makes him sub par, just gives him a different set of qualities and views than the more militaristic Hal and John, and the loose cannon Guy. Nightwing was never a sub-par character to Batman because he was younger. Making them all the same age, getting the rings at the same time, etc... makes me wonder how Batman would've been if he had three or four partners right out of the gate closer to his age. That idea sounds just as horrible as making all the Lantern's in their twenties.

                Kyle is the only GL that I can see surviving without the Corps proper, I mean hell he did it for years. I mentioned using Starheart energy earlier because it's green and similar enough and makes him closer to a Green Lantern than the other colored rings. However, it's also a whole new ballgame with more potential than you can shake a stick at. There's no Alan around, no Jade, and in the New52 it could literally be connected to tons of stuff.

                Separating Kyle could've worked the first time as Ion if DC would've stuck with it. Go hard or go home. You can't decide halfway through a story that everything needs to change again. The two times I've written Kyle out of the Corps proper were a blast, making him the Torchbearer won me the writing contest on this site that year after going into OT with Heide and writing second acts, and Heide's story was incredible. Writing Kyle as the Dark Lantern for seven or eight chapters was also fun, as the stuff with the then current JLoA in the pre-New52 setting all but wrote itself. I'm completely sold on the idea of Kyle w/o the Corps or being a little different.

                I honestly feel like at this point I haven't read about Kyle in the New52. He's just a cardboard cutout rehashing Hal stories with the New Guardians and White Lantern status, and the wearing every ring leading up to being the WL. Hell even hooking up with Carol/Star Sapphire. Now he's hanging with the Omega Men. The cardboard cutout just happens to be named Kyle Rayner.

                ~KL~

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Foghorn Lantern View Post
                  Just make him a Green Lantern on Earth, which is where he works best. But none of that Nineties "Friends," New York and Gen X shit.

                  You're going to have to reboot the whole thing to get rid of Emerald Twilight. All four Lanterns should get their rings at the same time. No crashed spaceship for Abin Sur though because that made no sense anyway. He's just mortally wounded. Hal and Kyle get Earth duty, and Guy and John get space duty. The Central Power Battery decides that stuff. No set number of Lanterns or space sectors. Then do what Emerald Dawn 2 did and have Sinestro weasel his way in as their alleged benefactor and trainer, but with bad intentions.

                  All problems solved. PM me and I'll do it for you, DC.
                  Reading the rest of this topic more clearly now, and because I can go on for hours...

                  You want to do WHAT with Hal's origin? Butcher it to add three other Lanterns at the same time? While it would speak volumes to Abin Sur's character that it'd take four Lanterns to replace him, if it ain't broke don't fix it. Let's go ahead and let Joe Chill be 'the guy' who killed every superhero's parents in the DCU while we're at it LOL

                  The 90's NY 'Friends' stuff is what sold the better part of Kyle's original run. It isn't the character's fault that the whole scene was the victim of gentrification and everybody wanted to be moody artists and what the kids got to calling emo. It's hilarious how gentrified female leads are in superhero related media with every other one pulling a Lois Lane and wanting to be a reporter. A character is only as good as his supporting cast. Batman has Gordon, Alfred, Grayson, Catwoman, Lucius Fox, and the whole Wayne Enterprises thing. Superman's got Perry White, Lois, Jimmy, Lana Lang, and the rest of the Daily Planet crowd. NYC wasn't the home of every other hero in DC like it is in Marvel. Kyle had Radu, Allison, the blind musician, Donna Troy, Arsenal, and the rest of the young heroes from that generation of Team Titans or New Titans I think it was called.

                  Originally posted by Foghorn Lantern View Post
                  I think what causes it is that people love to "get creative" instead of looking at what a long track record shows very clearly to work and not work.
                  ^^^ And this just goes along with what I was getting at. The everyman's hero vibe, Kyle's laid back slacker artist lifestyle, being the younger generation of hero... that's what sold the series. It wasn't until after Winick's run started winding down and Kyle started becoming more Hal lite that it went to shit. And to dedicate so much to the Earth life Kyle didn't have anymore and for what... letting Jade sleep around and seeing John get his dancing legs back?

                  I also disagree with...

                  Kyle doesn't need to be a White Lantern, a Starheart Lantern, a weak-assed Lantern or anything of the sort. EVERY TIME someone has tried to make a Green Lantern into something else, the idea had flopped. It's been tried MANY, MANY TIMES, and it's flopped EVERY DAMNED TIME.
                  Guy was a yellow Lantern before such a thing existed. You can blame that failure on the stupid G belt buckle and the bowlcut. Guy here had the advantage of being the only star of his book. And it still sucked. I'm not even gonna bother listing Warrior because it wasn't anything remotely like a GL comic.

                  John Stewart's time as a Darkstar wasn't very long. Same could be said for Donna Troy. Neither was really the star of the Darkstars title before it was cancelled. I don't see how John's time as something other than a Lantern was a failure, it was more of a background gig.

                  Alan Scott becoming young again at first made me excited. The suit looked incredible, the universe was just rocked by Zero Hour, and all of his adventures that lead to him becoming Sentinel, then growing old again, happened in the background of other comics. I always think back to the rumor that if Kyle didn't work as a concept DC was gonna fall back on the younger Alan Scott. So many ideas are running through my head for all of these concepts now...

                  Hal's time as Parallax, pre giant yellow grasshopper, is still seen as something that had so much potential that was wasted the second he was killed and became the Spectre. To this day there are still people who would love to see Hal go grey again and become Parallax like he was before Geoff Johns. Of course Hal as the Spectre was doomed to fail, but again, that ridiculous idea at least had him being developed in a solo series.

                  Kyle's time as Ion the first time was during another of his high points, ending with issue #150. It wasn't a solo series without GL in the title, but I think the resonance left from Hal's coolness as Parallax was part of the reason Ion was even attempted. The first half of his 12 issue maxi set up what would've been a great new setting for the character and by his creator no less. Character driven GL comics were becoming a thing of the past though with the oncoming Sinestro Corps War. Kyle's time as a White Lantern was during the New Guardians, while his story wasn't in the background, he still had to share panel time with his team and connecting the GL books with event tie ins.

                  Guy Gardner as a solo yellow Lantern: Failed but had potential.
                  Guy Gardner as Warrior: Failed.
                  John as a Darkstar: Had potential and was all in the background, hardly a failure.
                  Hal as Parallax: Had potential and was all in the background, hardly a failure.
                  Hal as the Spectre: Failed.
                  Alan as Sentinel: Worked and had potential, but was in the background.
                  Kyle as Ion 1.0: Worked and was a high point in his run, however his title was still 'Green Lantern'.
                  Kyle as Ion 2.0: Worked up until Geoff Johns got event crazy and came up with entities and multiple Lantern Corps'.

                  Now with the more recent stuff...

                  Hal as every colored Lantern: Worked, it's what sold his series for the better run of volume 4.

                  Guy as a Red Lantern: Worked up until Red Lanterns ended well enough to keep the series going. Guy still has a red ring even in GLC: Lost Army. Guy as a RL has potential, they're just trying to hard at the moment.

                  Kyle as a Blue Lantern: Worked, however it was in the background. A lot of us Kyle fans wanted to see this and we got to see it twice. Had potential.

                  Kyle as every colored Lantern: Worked up until New Guardians ended well enough to keep the series going. Like his time as a Blue Lantern, Kyle's time as a White Lantern had potential but he had to share his monthly title.

                  Saying the GL's can't make it as anything other than a standard GL is ludicrous. There's a lot of potential in some of these ideas, it's just never explored.

                  Rant over. I think I made any points I was getting at.

                  ~KL~
                  Ωmega Man
                  Guardian of the Universe
                  Last edited by Ωmega Man; 08-04-2015, 04:08 AM.

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                  • #39
                    The people who said twenty years ago that they liked Kyle because he was young like them aren't so young any more. Maybe some of them haven't noticed that though.

                    Yes, maybe you could make a Lantern into something else and it would work. But it's not worked enough times that the stubbornest person in the world ought to start considering by now that maybe it's just a bad idea.

                    The only way you need to separate Kyle from the other Earth Lantern is PHYSICALLY. That is, just put him in another city and give him his own stuff to deal with.
                    Trey Strain
                    Guardian of the Universe
                    Last edited by Trey Strain; 08-04-2015, 04:09 AM.

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                    • #40
                      I liked Kyle twenty years ago. I'm almost 31. Doesn't change the fact there needs to be a younger Lantern. The moment Baz was created I called bullshit because he was the third Lantern from Detroit, it's just too much. Saying one dying Lantern chose four twenty somethings is on the same level as Power Rangers cheesy and that's without even going into multiple colored Corps'.

                      It hasn't worked well enough for anyone... but Kyle.

                      Putting him in a different city on Earth but still leaving him rooted to the GLC proper and getting pulled away for events and crossovers will still leave us with a Kyle in name only and he'll be given stories meant for Hal. Especially if he continues any relationship with Carol, has problems finding a job, has to make new friends [pun intended] in the New52, etc and so forth.

                      We need character driven stories first and foremost. A supporting cast for more than four or five issues before they're never seen again. And with Kyle, that little something to set him apart. He'll forever be a GL book no matter how far removed from the GLC proper he becomes, just like Grayson will forever be tied to the Bat-Family. But like Grayson, an effort has to be made to let the character truly shine.

                      ~KL~

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                      • #41
                        Whatever is done with Kyle, I'm of the opinion that he should not be in the Green Lantern Corps, even if he will forever be tied to the Green Lantern mythology. I think the Green Lantern mythos offers enough alternatives to where he could still have powers similar to a Green Lantern's, but not be in the Corps.

                        His whole deal was that he was a different sort of Lantern and he didn't have the Corps with him. That doesn't mean he must be the undeniable most powerful Lantern, but I think he should be different.
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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Star-Lantern View Post
                          Whatever is done with Kyle, I'm of the opinion that he should not be in the Green Lantern Corps, even if he will forever be tied to the Green Lantern mythology. I think the Green Lantern mythos offers enough alternatives to where he could still have powers similar to a Green Lantern's, but not be in the Corps.

                          His whole deal was that he was a different sort of Lantern and he didn't have the Corps with him. That doesn't mean he must be the undeniable most powerful Lantern, but I think he should be different.

                          Do you feel that way because you think it would be best for the Kyle Rayner character? Or so that John Stewart has less competition holding a "spot" in the GL books?

                          I feel like many of us seem to be okay with GLs taking on a non GL role...as long as it isn't THEIR pet character. As a Hal fan, it sure would strengthen the position of Hal's character to not be crowded by all these other human GLs. They could make John a Darkstar, Guy a Vulcrapian warrior, Kyle could become God, Baz the new Human Bomb...but is that the right thing to do with those characters?

                          There are always fans of said character becoming a non GL that are actual fans of that character, but I feel like a lot of us just want to be rid of the competition.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Big Daddy Dave Skywalker View Post
                            Do you feel that way because you think it would be best for the Kyle Rayner character? Or so that John Stewart has less competition holding a "spot" in the GL books?

                            I feel like many of us seem to be okay with GLs taking on a non GL role...as long as it isn't THEIR pet character. As a Hal fan, it sure would strengthen the position of Hal's character to not be crowded by all these other human GLs. They could make John a Darkstar, Guy a Vulcrapian warrior, Kyle could become God, Baz the new Human Bomb...but is that the right thing to do with those characters?

                            There are always fans of said character becoming a non GL that are actual fans of that character, but I feel like a lot of us just want to be rid of the competition.
                            You nailed it right there, Dave. Exactly why were so many of Kyle's fans so angry and adamant for so long that Hal and the Corps should never come back? The only reason is that they didn't want any competition, of course. They wouldn't admit it, but that was their one and only real issue.

                            Then, after Hal and the Corps did come back, I noticed on the old DC boards that Kyle's fans were always suggesting some weird role for Guy that made no sense and that was actually designed to get him out of the way. And when I'd say no, I think Kyle should do that, they're freak out.

                            After all this time, that undercurrent is still there.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Foghorn Lantern View Post
                              You nailed it right there, Dave. Exactly why were so many of Kyle's fans so angry and adamant for so long that Hal and the Corps should never come back? The only reason is that they didn't want any competition, of course. They wouldn't admit it, but that was their one and only real issue.

                              Then, after Hal and the Corps did come back, I noticed on the old DC boards that Kyle's fans were always suggesting some weird role for Guy that made no sense and that was actually designed to get him out of the way. And when I'd say no, I think Kyle should do that, they're freak out.

                              After all this time, that undercurrent is still there.
                              I agree. I'd just point out it isn't solely a Kyle fan thing, it's fans of all four human GLS. (I don't think there ARE any Baz specific fans.)

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Big Daddy Dave Skywalker View Post
                                I agree. I'd just point out it isn't solely a Kyle fan thing, it's fans of all four human GLS. (I don't think there ARE any Baz specific fans.)
                                Point taken. But Kyle's fans have a long history of being the the most persistent and pernicious offenders about it.

                                The thing to do is just put out four well-conceived GREEN LANTERN titles with good writing, and let the chips fall where they may. Don't "get creative" and try to come up with a different concept. If one or two of the Lanterns need to be recast later as something else, then you can do that.
                                Trey Strain
                                Guardian of the Universe
                                Last edited by Trey Strain; 08-04-2015, 07:18 PM.

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