Intro:

Some time ago, a forum that I post at spurred a lengthy spiel that was too much time and effort not to spread elsewhere... It's about how Batman beats everyone. It's kinda mean and like shooting fish in a barrel... but he asked for it.

Disclaimer: I'm the first to admit that I'm not a bona fide expert... There are many more people in here that're better-equipped in dealing with this issue and knowledgeable than myself as well as this putz and I realize that I took my fair share of liberties with my own argument so feel free to shoot this note full of holes... if you have the patience to read the whole thing. (You gotta admit though for the most part, I'm right =D)

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ME: That was one of the main things I was looking forward to when I found this place; I mean just last week we spent two hours at the diner with all of my friends trying to find someone ANYONE who could beat Batman.

minhbeo aka Idiot #1: ahhh , Son Goku pwns alll !!!

ME: EDIT: Oh and Batman takes Chi-Chi hostage. He wouldn't hurt her but Goku's too dumb not to know that. Either that or he just gets the Dragonballs.


ddrt aka Main Idiot: phew! after reading 8 pages I have only one thing to say... How the hell would batman beat a live cartoon character!? for serious! (p.s. Grendel can take batman down *and by that I mean the comic character grendel*)

ME: I know who Grendel is. Didn't Batman come out on top of both Hunter Rose and Grendel Prime? I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that he beat both of those two in the rematch.

And the basic qualification of the argument Batman beats everyone is "with the right preparation". For example if Batman were to just out of the blue take on Apollo from the Authority he'd get creamed, because he's never encountered him and he has no contingencies. But with prior knowledge and or sufficient time to prepare, Batman can take on anyone.

I mean the match-up of Bugs Bunny Vs. Batman is ludicrous in the first place. But well, comic book match-ups are ludicrous period, so the argument, "How the hell would Batman beat a live cartoon character!?" really doesn't retain water. You suspend the disbelief further, and allow for them to coexist in the same fictional space, then have them go at it. The original argument that my friend proposed in the first place was, "What about Bugs Bunny in Bugs Bunny's home turf?"

And like I said, I was stumped for a moment there because the Looney Tunes are all but nigh-indestructible, but they are susceptible to pain and even death. How? The dip in Roger Rabbit. If there's a way to beat someone, then Batman knows it.

Because Batman knows how to beat every single character in the DC universe. EVERY SINGLE ONE. And what's the go-to criticism of most casual fanboys? That the DC characters are too powerful, too much like Greek Gods and not grounded in realism. And this is very much true. And Batman can beat EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. The Punisher is by no means a slouch. He walked into Ryker's and cleaned house UNARMED. You know how long it took Batman to beat Punisher? And that was without prep and without knowing who Frank was. One panel. And it happened off-panel.

Reference JLA: Tower of Babel for further reading.

ddrt: I digress. Batman IS the most bad ass of bad ass...buuut..... what about Rorschach? He is basically a batman clone in the universe of Watchmen. He also carefully and meticulously calculates how to go against his enemies and also can fight with, excuse the phrase, "retard strength." I can just see him leaving batman a note that says "guano" and then jumps on him from above.

ME: Rorshach was based directly on The Question although the Batman archetype is definitely split between him and Nite Owl. Having said that what holds Rorshach back despite his tremendous strength is the fact that he's hindered by realism; whereas Batman and the Punisher are much less liable to exist in the real world. So I think that Rorshach would even have a hard time with Frank, although it would be a hell of a fight.

Bats Vs. Punisher:





Best bet would be Cap, but in my opinion even he falls short. Cap needed Bucky to do his dirty work in WWII because he's too squeaky clean. Ultimate Cap is dirty enough, but again he's hindered by realism as well...





ddrt: Amagalam was so BA... okay Wolverine then! They combined him with Batman. I guess he could be tranqulized but when he woke up (even if he was at the bottom of a concrete and fishy demise, he could get out).

ME: Wolverine and Deadpool are the go-to guys whenever this conversation comes up. The thing is is that all three of them have spec ops or spec ops type training... but Bats is the only one that utilizes it to its fullest.

Like in the most recent issue of New Avengers when Wolvie and Spidey jump out of a plane and are shot at, Spidey dodges the bullets because he can't afford to, but Wolvie just takes them. It'd be the same, Wolvie wouldn't land a killing blow because Bats wouldn't let him (superior training too) whereas Wolvie would just take everything that Bats has to give him.

It's like in Blade of the Immortal where Manji talks about how he's lost his edge. He's immortal so his skills atrophy because he doesn't rely on them as much as he does his immortality. Same with Wolvie.

Which works against him. As soon as Bats finds out that Wolvie can take whatever he can give, Bruce'll unload on him WITHOUT inhibition, which he's rarely IF EVER done. He'll give him everything he has, and Wolvie'll be systematically and surgically taken out. Sure Wolvie has his Canadian Black Ops training, his CIA training, and his samurai training, but Bruce has studied and mastered every single martial art known to man.

And if need be, Bats could and would take Wolvie down. As soon as Bats gets the Muramasa Blade, stick a fork in Logan, he's done.

ddrt: You forgot his anamalistic tendencies. If Wolvie goes berzerker bruce is screwed. Also the adamantium skeleton is something he can't handle, he is after all just a man.

ME: You kinda neglected everything I've said but anyways...

I didn't neglect Wolverine's Berserker Rage, just didn't really take it into account. Main reason being that Wolverine's main asset is his healing factor, two because Bruce's complete abandon of restraint (which Wolverine's near indestructibility would facilitate) would give him the edge he needs to compensate for Wolverine's Berserker Mode, and three Bruce has faced MORE than his share for "animalistic" foes with the first one that comes to mind being Killer Croc.

Oh and Batman also beat the Xenomorphs (Aliens) as well as the Yautja (Predators).

As far as the adamantium goes, and actually the Berserker Rage too, again, see above. Give him the Muramasa Blade, and one clean hit, and Wolverine's done. Wolverine has samurai training but Shingen tore his ass up and Batman would surpass Shingen as far as mastery goes.

ddrt: All of batman's foes have been semi-brainless and that's one of the main reasons he triumphs so consistently (especially because of his preparation). Wolverine can sneak through an airport unnoticed and board a plane... I'm sure batman could also do that but he would have an easier time than someone who has metal grafted to their bones. I really don't know how batman would take him with his claws out (throws a batarang and it's deflected and wolverine is still coming), also wolverine has animal senses, he can smell him coming from miles away, he can smell fear! I'm not so sure that batman would be fearing anything but I guarantee he'd be sweating after one night in that batsuit. Also, we have to keep in mind that these stories are told because the heroes in it are the best and also they are not easily beaten. Wolverine has taken on a lot, batman is by far more intelligent than Wolverine. Wolverine is hands down stronger and has built in mini-katanas. If batman had a sword maybe, barehanded and 5 hours in the lab I don't think so. It would take a lot of stun powder, Tranqs, practically anything you can throw at him to even get him to go to his knees much less defeat him. In the end I just don't see it being as simple as "He's fought other bad guys who were hunters and beat them" So has wolverine, he's fought just about everyone in the marvel universe and won, including the Hulk.

ME: Again you're not listening...

All of batman's foes have been semi-brainless and that's one of the main reasons he triumphs so consistently (especially because of his preparation).

...

Have you ever read a Batman comic?

He beat Superman.

Ra's Al Ghul.

Lex Luthor.

Darkseid.

The Yautja possess higher intellect than humans.

Any of those above have more brains in their pinky than Wolverine. Wolverine is not an intelligent character. He's a crafty one. There's a difference.

I really don't know how batman would take him with his claws out (throws a batarang and it's deflected and wolverine is still coming),

For the THIRD time, the Muramasa Blade.

Look it up.

also wolverine has animal senses, he can smell him coming from miles away, he can smell fear! I'm not so sure that batman would be fearing anything but I guarantee he'd be sweating after one night in that batsuit.

Again, Batman has fought more than his share of foes with "animal senses". Killer Croc. And don't you think that the Batsuit is designed to compensate for any bodily functions that would hamper performance?

So has wolverine, he's fought just about everyone in the marvel universe and won, including the Hulk.

When did Wolverine beat the Hulk? Their first encounter the Hulk trounced Logan. I don't remember Wolvie winning any of the other bouts either. And as far as your Wolverine can get through airports undetected that's Ultimate Wolverine, and if you make the case for Ultimate Wolvie then you're shooting yourself in the foot because Ultimate Wolvie is weaker than 616 Wolvie and got torn in half by Ultimate Hulk.

I repeat, Batman beat Superman. Batman can beat anyone in the DC universe. Wolverine is nowhere at Superman's power level. Wolverine lost to Shingen in straight up combat. I repeat, an OLD SAMURAI FOAGIE. Batman is one of the Top 3 martial artists in the DC Universe, not just Japan, but the UNIVERSE.

Batman could beat Wolverine in hand-to-hand combat but once he realizes that Wolverine can take anything and he goes all out and pours everything he has? Not a chance in hell.

One more note, courtesy of my bro Mike. Wolvie has LOST to everyone in the Marvel Universe. Including Alpha Flight.

Batman has pretty much NEVER lost.

The one real loss he has is at the hands of Bane and that was only after Batman had schooled his ENTIRE Rogues Gallery. Batman gets his back broken ONCE and it's on the national news. Wolvie is taken to the brink of death just about every issue of the 18 books he appears in and noone so much as farts.

Batman also killed Darkseid. A God. A genuine God.

Who has Wolverine killed? He so much as looks at Thor wrong and he'll get a lightning bolt up his ass.

Ebag: Oh and Batman also beat the Xenomorphs (Aliens) as well as the Yautja (Predators).

I didn't know anyone else paid much attention to those. Haha

ME: I was obsessed with the crossover comics when I was in middle school -_- When you're 11 NOTHING is more appealing than seeing Batman fight Judge Dredd.

Shit I think I just found the source of all of this madness -_-

EDIT: Here's what happens to Wolvie when he goes up against someone who A) knows how to handle himself, and B) knows how to handle Wolvie.



And we all know how Bruce Vs. Frank turns out.

EDIT: Oh and on another note, Bats trumps Cap.



That's Deadpool nailing Cap in the nads. And Bats is a practitioner of Pencak Silat, which he most recently used in his last fight with the Joker, which is ALL about ball shots.

ddrt: I am a huge Deadpool fan but you Can Not use his comics as a part of the real marvel universe (cancelled twice and then brought back in a Cable/Deadpool comic= Annual comic status... totally not relevant)

So wolverine is done for, what about Taskmaster? or even Deathstryke? I think batman could take them but what do you do with someone who can mimic your every move after watching it once? (taskmaster does some pretty extensive research before even thinking of facing an enemy) Also, azrael gave him some difficulty didn't he? I thought that batman had to regroup after trying to take back his matle from him.

ME: Of course you can... Just because he breaks the fourth wall doesn't make his books non-canon.

Batman's already beaten Deathstroke and he's beaten Azrael. Batman fought someone not unlike Taskmaster in Prometheus. And Prometheus handed Batman his ass in his debut but that one chance was all he got. Taskmaster's alright but he's not a Marvel contender and he doesn't even come close to holding Cap's jockstrap. Hell even fucking Moon Knight (Batman Lite) ripped Taskmaster to shreds.

Steve (A friend): ok so two questions

1) when you say batman can beat anyone. Are you talking about Bruce Wayne as Batman or the persona, equipment and everything else that comes with being "the Goddamn Batman"

2) out of all the different batmans who wins and why? is it because he is the quintessential or because he would just murder the other batman? does technology really matter? does batman by candlelight have a chance or can the the son(s) of batman beat the original because they were not only trained in everything but also train by him and technology from the future to use? or is it a paradox because they would have contingencies upon contingencies ready for one another?

had to ask

ME: 1) Bruce. But here’s the revised thesis at its core, because I’m not stupid enough to think that noone could take Batman. Given the right circumstances and with all of his skills and resources at his disposal, Batman can beat anybody. And that in itself means a lot. For example you could give someone like I don’t know, Daredevil all the resources and time for preparation in the world but he wouldn’t be able to beat Deathstroke, let alone Darkseid. Batman at his core represents the pinnacle of human perfection as well as indomitable human will; he’s the embodiment of perseverance. He sets his mind to something, and he’ll do it.

2) I would have to say Bruce Wayne as in current DC continuity post 1986. Like you said, he’s the quintessential version that’s been built up to embody the attributes that I’ve mentioned above (and the one that’s done all the super badass things like beat Superman and design OMAC, come up with contingencies for the Justice League, etc.). The main issue that most of the Elseworlds Batmen wouldn’t win is that they don’t have the benefit of an incredibly fleshed out history, IE they don’t have the wide experience that current continuity Bruce does. I’m sure that there are some Batmen that would match or top Earth-1 Bruce powerwise (GL Bruce, Vampire Bruce) and I’m sure that some of them have been characterized as badass as E1 Bruce, but in the end E1 Bruce is the essence of the character.

Gastlight Batman and any of the Batmen from the past like The Nail Batman might have Bruce’s training and will power, but they won’t have the benefit of the new tech and updated training that E1 Bats will. The problem with the Sons of Batmen is that they suffer from the same syndrome as all of the other sidekicks, “We will always be weaker than Daddy” syndrome. As much as I love everyone in the Bat-Family, noone tops the Big Cheese.

Honestly though, I like your “contingencies upon contingencies ready for one another” plan better. I know for fact that Earth-1 Batman will since he’s had run-ins with multiple versions of himself. But again as far as the other Elseworld Batmen are concerned, since most of those stories are self-contained I’d doubt they’d be thinking of alternate Batmen.